Industry vs. Hawk

[Ruddertail]

Having penalties lessened by hares is fine, but only if you make it more steep to begin with, i.e. a badger without hares under bloodwrath has no defences. But, the giant flaw there is that it forces massing of troop type three. And remember the old WBII? So, I would be against that.

Ok, so scratch the idea of a boost to hares. Instead, give Badgers under bloodwrath a - 25% to Defense and 50% more losses. That would seem to me to make more sense. With a - 50% defense penalty, people wouldn't use bloodwrath except to kill. With only - 25% defense, and + 50% to losses, it would still be severe, but you'd be able to use it and still have some defense.

For Rallying cry, instead of demolishing 75% of structures, maybe demolish 25% and make another 50% unusable. Structures wouldn't fall apart that quick.

[Zephyrus]

For Rallying cry, instead of demolishing 75% of structures, maybe demolish 25% and make another 50% unusable. Structures wouldn't fall apart that quick.

Unusuable how? Land that's built and unusuable (nonfunctional) is more of a setback than unused land. You can't build on unusuable land and it becomes free land for someone else. And for demolishing 75%, that's only to stop hawk massers from rallying too often. And while the structures themselves aren't apart, we consider them to be because they are abandoned. Rebuilding them would be just like normal building.

I probably misunderstood something.

Bloodwrath being 50% more losses makes the assumption that badgers are going to lose that troop at all. But who goes around standarding badgers? It's generally easier to avoid troops the enemy has. So, 50% more losses would not really make the badger lose land any faster, which would be the aim.

And the loss from DEF still must be more than the gain to ATK.

[Veranor]

Rallying Cry

Available to: all

- Up front, pay a certain amount of grains and cash. Not much, though, or it's too hawk-like.
- 3/4 your current structures are immediately deconstructed. That is, rallying your people causes them to abandon these structures.
- Your army upkeep lowers temporarily.
- +25% to attacks for the next hour.
- Limit, one use per 20 hours.

This is kind of off-topic but I think it would be amusing if people used this ability to tear down structures before a run :*laughs*:

[Ruddertail]

For the Badger, that makes sense. Your suggestion sounds like the best.

Yes, you did missunderstand about Rallying Cry. I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant was that 50% would be unusable for the duration of the mission's effect. After that, you could use those structure again. Though maybe the cost wouldn't be steep enough, then.

[Zephyrus]

This is kind of off-topic but I think it would be amusing if people used this ability to tear down structures before a run :*laughs*:

Bah.
Game balance down the drain, then.
Again.
*off to make new ideas*

[Ruddertail]

If it only demolishes 25% percent of structures, it would prevent that from being done. You'd still have the structures, you just wouldn't get anything from them till the mission's efect ended.

[Ruddertail]

Speciel abilities.
Mouse:

Reduces the cost of getting a hero by 25%.

Hedgehog: Farm:
50% of normal foraging yeild, both regular forage, and hawk forage.

Hare: There are two things I thought of. "Long Patrol Defense." Gives a + 50% defense, but you are limited to two attacks per warband until it wares off, or "Galoper"(sp?) Gives a 50 - 75% scouting bonus, both regular and hawk scouting.

PS. Sorry for the double post, but it's compleatly different, and a day later.

[bjornredtail]

Supply cashe: sortof one-way prepare hawks. You can use it, but your opponents can't.

[Zephyrus]

Ruddertail:

I dunno. I keep thinking that heros are cheap. Very cheap. Considering what they do for all of you in the high ranks.

Farm bonus abilities to the underused indy races would be nice. How you activate farm is something that needs thought. Seeing as an agrarian race would not really have troops, or hawks. Though giving hawk forage a bonus may go overboard, as hawks are already overpowerful if you play in the middle ranks.

Long Patrol Defence seems viable, except 50 is far too much. We already have heroes, and we MUST make industry profitable. Something like that would mess it up pretty quickly, especially if some guy goes with a hawk strategy, and happens to be hare. It sort of cancels out the main weakness.

Galloper? Well, a bonus to traditional scout will never be used. A bonus to hawk scout? No way. It's linear, and easily abused, and we're not about to undo the cap put on it. Seeing as most badger-hybrids can abuse it quite well. And I'm guessing hare would become the next scout-abuse race of choice.

[Ruddertail]

Hmm. I guess. But what do we do for mice? Maybe somthing with a defense bonus, since mice are mainly defensive.

For hedgehog, maybe only a 25% to hawk forage, and 50% to regular. Also, I think somone who is going agrarian would want some hawks, otherwise he'd just be a food farm for everyone. But give it low ratio, and medium rune cost.

For hare: Go with long patrol defense, make it 25 - 35% defense bonus.

I'm going to type up a list of every thing I think we've settled on, and you see if you agree. If you do, Beatles can look at it to see what he wants to do with it. I'll do that somtime tonight or tomarrow.

[Zephyrus]

Long Patrol Defence should not be more than 10, unless the costs are REALLY steep.

Yeah. Agrarian is a non-hawk, free food farm, but one with enough resources to hire almost anyone as a mercenary, thus allowing him to farm in peace.

No hawk boost, because we do not want another marten.

Mice get defences? Probably. But also something like, well, dunno.

[Ruddertail]

I think being nearly unable to retal or attack for the duration is a pretty steep cost. If you make it last 24 hours, I think it would balance out the benifits enough to make it fair. If you realy want a steep cost, no attacks except against somone who has attacked you, and still only two attacks per warband against them.

Fore hedgehog, + 50% for foraging. Maybe also require a low ratio when hawk foraging? The hedgehog mission should have a ratio about the same as raise defenses, would you agree? Or do you think higher?

Anyone have any ideas for mice? Maybe somthing that makes them lose less land per attack against them?

Mole:

Tunnel Attack. It's like Suprise attack, only for all attack types, and with reduced penalties.
It gives all attacks a 25% bonus, with only a 12% health penalty, and 40% percent more losses.

[Zephyrus]

+50 for standard forage is fine.
Pay about, say, anywhere from a mil to a bil grain and 100 turns upfront.
And I'm serious here.
But, an extra +10 or +15 or + 20 at the cost of nothing, forever there, with only peanlties to attack and defence, and perhaps an extra +10 from special commands, would be fine, and would make the perfect rich empire that retals through mercenaries, and would make a nice addition to any big clan or be good for Noonvaling.

If not being able to retal is the punishment, 48 hours.

For mole, tunnel attack is fine. But plain tunneling as a sort of hiding is also good. Even though RWL's taken that already. But, seriously, how many here use surprise attack? How many use mole otherwise?

Let's give them something else nice.

[Ruddertail]

I don't like the idea of it costing grain. Maybe cash, but foraging that costs grain sounds kind of counter productive. Or, maybe like you were saying, give regular race bonuses instead. I'll put both ideas up.

Fore hare, then.

Long Patrol Defense.


Ratio, medium, rune cost, medium.
Effects. + 25% defense. May not attack any warband except in retal. Retal limited to 2* attacks per warband. It lasts 48 hours

*Maybe it shold be 4 attacks, since it's 48 hours long.

Mole.

Yes, but once it is known that mole has a mission that makes all troop attacks the equivalent of a reduced cost suprise attack, giving it + 18% attack, more people will use mole for that reason.
Just to clairify, if I was a mole, and had this enabled, and I used a Navel battle, it would give my otters a 18% bonus, take a 12% health loss, and I'd lose 40% more otters.
But if you have another idea, please put it forward. Either in addition, or instead of, what I proposed.

[Zephyrus]

In addition. Moles tunneling could help all troops, but especially mice. Squirrels are adept in trees, and should get something to that effect somewhere. Otters are in the water. Hares don't seem the type to enjoy burrowing, seeing as they complain to quite a bit of things.

LPD should not necessarily be hawk. Hare was meant to be offensive indy with no land keeping requirements. If only in retal, I would have nothing against four attacks per every 10 received.

Mole Tunnel is an extra boost automatically? Then why not just to the race bonus? Perhaps something that involves making a tunnel, consuming turns and resources. Somehow or another.