Good Times

[neobaron]

*smooch* I love you Dev.

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At what point are you talking aboot Soviet tanks being superior to German tanks?

Pre, during, or near the end of the war?

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Also please note it wasnt the German army's fault for miffing the Russian campaign... thats hitlers deal with all of his meddling. xD

That and Zhukov being the most leet general since Alexander... omg Zhukovs leet skills are so sexy... only general I can think of that never lost a battle to both Japan and Germany...

Zhukov > Chuck Norris

[The Beatles]

Just saw your post V. BTW, the British invented the tank in WWI then forgot about it. Silly British.

And anyways, the Spitfire outflew anything the Germans had. The British also developed the proximity fuze (deadly AA), the radar (the Luftwaffe was technologically so darn inferior to the RAF, even in the battle of the beams, in which German advances were jammed by the British in matters of weeks), and the Beaufighter's radar cleaned up night bombers. And even in sheer numbers, the British were out-producing the Germans by '40 by 40% in terms of fighters. The RAF kept replenishing its planes, and the Luftwaffe couldn't keep up, and never recovered (besides losing on average two planes for one British plane shot down).

[Gen. Volkov]

The tank was the M21 Pershing. 2nd most l33t tank made during that war.

[The Beatles]

Anyways Neo, you must admit that building weapons with low tolerances that froze up in the Russian winter was a pretty big gaffe for Germany.

[neobaron]

M26 sweetie


---Merging double-post by Beatles---

Well of course, but the way the war was going early on, it wasnt necessary to prepare, as they would undoubtably be to the Urals before it counted....

Then the little corporal stepped in and screwed everything up with his fixation on STALINgrad and LENINgrad.

[Gen. Volkov]

M26? Eh, close enough. *laughs*.

Prox fuse was an AMERICAN invention. Spitfire was totally outclassed by the Fw 190. The whole production rates thing was more because the British had a ton of American help and later the Germans were getting the shiite bombed out of their aircraft factories. The Germans lost the BOB because of Hitler, not because of what the British did. He made them switch tactics and try to scare them into submission instead of continuing to attack the RAF, which was damn near dead.

*laughs*. Hitler lost Germany the war. Which is why I've always maintained that he was an idiot. Pisses alot of Neo-Nazi's off when I say that.

[The Beatles]

True dat. Anyways, Germany was in a hopeless position even in '41, albeit US aid (which, while minimal at that point, would later become larger) helped too. Not that it wasn't in the US's vested interest to help out, as with the UK defeated, her trade to Europe would have frozen, and she would have been economically much more at the mercy of Nazi Germany.

[Gen. Volkov]

That and without Britain there would be no way to retake Europe short of a huge sealift all the way across the Atlantic. So in other words, had Germany taken Britain, they would have won the war.

[The Beatles]

Oy Volkov, you're talking out of your hat. The fuze was a British invention (credited as a collaboration on Wikipedia). Also, Hitler had precious little to do with the BoB. Goering decided the campaign, and he decided on bombing Britain solely because the Luftwaffe had exceedingly little intel on the RAF's true situation. The rumors of the RAF's death were greatly exaggerated -- it had no trouble. They could even have withdrawn from the South of England and still comfortably defended a.) the coast, b.) industry, and c.) large civilian cities, such as London.

To your previous post -- (you insert them, darnit!) -- yes, precisely. But the UK did not fall, nor did most of her Dominions in Africa and such. And this was Hitler's fatal check.

And as to your utterly silly claims about the RAF and American aid -- the British aircraft production numbers were due to Lord Beaverbrook, a British businessman. America didn't aid British aircraft production at all during the war, only sent destroyers to the navy (which was in a worse shape). But even those were sent after the BOB had been won (due to the presidential election only taking place in November).


---Merging double-post by Beatles---

So to sum up my main points from all these edits:

A. The BOB stopped Hitler and caused him to lose the war, even without Pearl Harbor and the Russian campaign.
B. The BOB was won due to
1. Aircraft production (Lord Beaverbrook)
2. Science: radar, the Beaufighter with radar, the proximity fuze
3. Tactics (Dowding)
4. Intelligence (cyphers and the Luftwaffe ineptness)

C. Strokes of luck for Hitler:
1. Russia on Poland
2. France
D. Strokes of luck for the Allies:
1. Dunkirk
2. the Russian campaign
3. Pearl Harbor

[neobaron]

Hrm

I wouldnt say Germany was dead duck in 41...

US could have been /easily/ repulsed in France, and the Italian front was a slow moving pile of death for the advancing allies...

Russia could have been dealt with eventually... her people had been in turmoil since the late 1800s, and they were just as pissed off with stalin as they had been with teh tsar...

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Lots of reasons why the Axis eventually folded. Italy was a pansy, Japan was stubborn and lacked real industrial backbone, and Germany had a leader that rly thought he knew what he was doing.


---Merging double-post by Beatles---

Beatles, do you really want to challenge us on the Aircraft thing?

I have spent the last 10 years or so of my life obsessed with this subject and I can say for a fact that the US contributions to the survival of the RAF was in no way existant, then you are dead wrong.

[Gen. Volkov]

Prox fuze was developed in the US. I know this to be fact. Britain may have collaborated or not, but primary credit goes to America.

As too the RAF being alive or dead, I have researched this extensively, the idea that they could have withdrawn is ridiculous. They were on their last legs when a joint decision of Hitler and Goering switched the focus of the German air campaign.

And I defer to Neo on the last part.


---Merging double-post by Beatles---

Germany still had a chance to retain most of it's conquered territories when the US entered the war. Had Hitler not been fixated on Russia, the US and Britain would have been faced with a slow one front war in Europe. They prolly would have taken France back and maybe Italy. Past that, I don't think they would have done much because they would have faced all of Germany's power alone, without Russia to split the forces. Russia was Germany's downfall, not Britain. However he could have taken Russian with Britain in hand.

[The Beatles]

Yes, I want to challenge you on the Aircraft thing.

1. Cite me any figures of US aid to the RAF.
* I see that under the Lend-lease program, the US did send aircraft to Britain. HOWEVER, only starting in '42/'43. I'm talking '40/'41, when none were sent.

2. Dispute my claim that British aircraft production exceeded Germany's by 40% by mid-1940.

3. Show me that Lindemann did not develop the proximity fuze.
* http://www.fourmilab.ch/fourmilog/archives/2005-03/000493.html
* http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/2203/5624/00215243.pdf?arnumber=215243

4. Prove to me that the RAF could not have withdrawn from the South of England if it had been in trouble.

5. Tell me the number of German agents in Britain in '40-'41 and try to argue the fact that the Luftwaffe was essentially completely in the dark.

6. Show to me how Germany's position could have been tenable once they were repulsed from the invasion of the UK. You know well that by '42, the British could easily have been raiding France.


[edit] In response to your post that slipped in: why was Hitler fixated on Russia? Because he was repulsed at Britain, that's why.

[edit2] Meanwhile, I'm busy citing my references.

[Devari]

Actually, I'd say it was a bit more of the whole Lebensraum thing...

[The Beatles]

I disagree, Lebensraum is just propaganda. Besides, he was clearly repulsed from the UK. Next most logical target (Balkans being overtaken)? You bet Russia.

[Gen. Volkov]

Actually within two weeks of the lend lease program being signed, 5,400 airplanes, 400,000 Thompson sub-machine guns, 3,400 Universal carriers, 5,500 heavy guns, as well as ammunition for them, sixty patrol bombers, and 180 Navy fighters
had been delivered.

http://www.gwaihir.org/writings/aa.html


---Merging double-post by Beatles---
Hitler was fixated on Russia before the BOB. (I'm just saying that Hitler was always gonna attack Russia)


The Proximity fuse was developed independently by all three countries. England, America, and Germany.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq96-1.htm