Proposal

[The Beatles]

If we take the affiliation business seriously, we should start out with a plan. I thus propose that EACH game MUST submit to the following criteria.

1. Create an 'Affiliates' menu header on the left menu of the login pages, under which the other game is linked first.
2. Amend the Rules on the forum by adding that no insults (bashing) of the other game, its staff, or its policies may occur, only kind criticism. (Back up with punishments, for example, we'd increase their warning level.)
[edit] Under this Rule, I would either disclaim the Ragefur quote (such as, this is an unsolicited opinion and may be biased) or remove it entirely.

I would also add, but I am not sure of:
3. Resets of servers of the other game are announced in the forum's News or General forums.


All that said, however, I am very wary of linking to a game with so many bugs. So as a first measure, I propose that either Veranor or I are given codebase access, then we do a fire-fighting job on BAXX's bugs. Then BAXX is reset (as will our BFR) and we announce the affiliation on each game's forums.

Comments, ideas, suggestions, amendments?

[Ruddertail]

I would advise that you ask Devari be given the codebase access. You and Veranor unfortunately have a bad reputation, and they might hesitate to give you access, while Devari is well respected at RWL, and well liked.

Also, clear up what is meant by "kind critisism" I assume you mean that "RWL is stupid" or "FAF stinks" would not be allowed, while things like "I don't like this feature of RWL because...", or "FAF would be better if they did this..." would be allowed.

[The Beatles]

Ruddertail, correct.
I don't think Veranor has a bad reputation at RWL -- but WB would know better. Any of us that can code is fine, because the others can tell him what to fix and how. In fact, a simpler thing would be for the person who has codebase access to download everything, we fix stuff, and he puts it back when necessary.

[Ruddertail]

Well, I've only seen a few posts from over there, but I gathered that they didn't like Veranor as much as, say, Devari, or someone else. I could be quite wrong, of course.

[windhound]

That would take a huge amount of trust though... I mean, would you give Retto, Wolf or Shael full unrestrained access to FAF's files?

I think the most that can be done there is ask Retto for a new update of BAXX's code, then make a list of what you think needs to be fixed
I know the reaction to that would be Retto is somtimes slow with his bug patches..
but.. *shrugs*

As to the others.. again, *shrugs* pros and cons to both,
and it doesnt really matter what I think, because in the end it will probably be Beatles and Retto who decide what to do with their sites...


edit: as to just Devari having access to the RWL files, it doesnt really matter. Nothin against Devari ofcourse, but I think quite a few of use here have read Mossflower (book 2, redwall sierries) where the sister wildcat gave the brother poisen to give their father, as the father would only accept medication via the brother, who was clueless about the poisen.
hum. well, you get the idea.. maybe..

[The Beatles]

That would take a huge amount of trust though... I mean, would you give Retto, Wolf or Shael full unrestrained access to FAF's files?

Yeah. I even invited Retto for FAF's beta test phase a year ago or so.

As to Retto's bug-fixing: he simply doesn't have enough time, which I know isn't his fault, but it's just not viable to have him fix things.

[wolf bite]

1. At this point Retto is not in favor of advertising, however a free flow of people is surely possible. We are not asking for advertising space on FAF. I can bring the topic up to the RWL staff as a non related idea.
2. Although not posted directly, we presently have that rule. Discussion how something works elsewhere is allowed, bashing is not. Thus Done.
3. Your people have the right to post in our spa room when you have your resets, as they did on you had your reopening. No problem, done.
4. The code is Retto’s and he is not asking for a direct link. Whether he wants to have people work with him on the code is up to him. I am not part of any code work nor have I coded since DOS first came out. Hehe.

PS. Veranor does not have a bad reputation that I know of. To my memory, we on the staff have never directly discussed him. He does complain about our policies sometimes, as he is allowed to, I have nothing against him.


Wolf Bite

[The Beatles]

No
Honestly, when I say 'News', I mean that, and not Spam. I make a proposal for an affiliation, and you make it into a joke. Suppose for a moment FAF and RWL are people. Suppose we want them, as outsiders, to be friends. Does that mean that they introduce each other to their best friends, or does it mean that they introduce each other to occasional tramps that they meet?

[wolf bite]

I don’t see how I made it into a joke or whether saying so is productive.

I negotiate for a living. Both sides move to the center to find a mid point that would be acceptable for all sides. You posed 4 completely different agreements grouped under one. Now if what you are opening with is an all or nothing which is a completely unmoving demand (known as “best and final�), then it shows an unwillingness to come to any agreement. Allow me to go over them again more clearly. Again all separate issues.

1) Create a link to links on the sign on page.
Not within my powers to negotiate. I can bring up the suggestion only, then get back to you at a later date.

2) Create a rule of not bashing for other sites.
We have this. But I would be willing to Edit forum rules to make it official. Thus we have an agreement on this issue.

3) Announce resets and updated versions in GD.
On this we have internal reasons (which are our own) what we want our different forums to be use as. We will allow it in the spa room. I know you ask for more and find that insulting, please don’t. We gain little in that offer since most of FAF’s members are already members of RWL and know when our resets are. This brings to where mediation comes in to find a neutral mid point, which I have given.

4) You request Retto to have FAF members review his code.
I have as much power to grant that as you do to have Ringo come to my birthday. From past experience Retto has released his code, only to have people find the back doors and use them to take down his site. I have announced my willingness to work with people that are willing to work WITH me to find bugs. Frankly if he wants to work on it, he can or have his buddies do so. Your approval of his coding is irrelevant to our forums, which is what we are talking about.


Wolf Bite

[Devari]

4)

I kind of like Beatles' idea on this point...

The current source is from January 22nd, 2005 (Hey, he just updated it!), so we can do this without comprimising RWL security. We can implement bug fixes in the code and give them to Retto to upload. All we really need is some assurance that we wouldn't be wasting our time patching up BAXX, in the form of knowing that our patches really will be uploaded.

It fits quite well in "the spirit of open source", so I don't really see a problem. If Retto doesn't want to use fixes we create, we can always release the patched code on a branch site (this is completely legal as long as he recieves proper credit). However, it would be far preferable if we could actually "fix" BAXX for the players.

Forgive me if I'm rambling - it's 6:10 AM.

[The Beatles]

Wolf, thank you for cooperating.

Before addressing other matters, let me clear up one point which I think you misunderstand. If this is not the case, sorry. Please read what I have to say, though.
Retto is legally obligated to release his source code, since the license of the game he modified stipulates so. We had a discussion at RWL about this, ending with much bitterness but a validation of this. At any rate, the problem of security is out of Retto's hand inasmuch as he cannot rely on "hiding" the source. The fact is, since anyone is legally entitled to view his current source code, he must take different steps to protect his site. He can't rely on not releasing the source; he must rely on fixing the bugs and patching the security holes.
Quite frankly, 1. Retto does not have much time for this and 2. we know the code of Promisance (and by extension to some degree BAXX) better than he does. Trust me when I say, you will not get a bug-free (or Josh-free if you prefer to think of it that way) without us. You may choose any method you wish to co-operate with us, but it can't rely on "hey, there is this, please fix it" because he never will. Again, not saying that's his fault, just a fact. You don't have to give us permanent codebase access, but we could just patch BAXX with a fire-fighting job on the bugs/holes and send it back to you. But as Devari said, we would like to know our efforts wouldn't be in vain.

I don't see that our approval of his coding is irrelevant to our discussion. We are not talking about the forums, because we are talking mostly about the games. The forums could disappear and the games would still be there: that drives them.


Anyways, on to the next points. I'd be very glad if you would bring up the affiliation issue with the staff, since you don't have responsibility to change it on your own. Now, I am not being stubborn, I am ready for a compromise. I am just saying that when we offer affiliation (friendship) you offer the Spa room, that is rude.
Here is a suggestion you might like, then. Create an 'Affiliates' forum at the bottom of the second category (above the clan forums) where affiliates of RWL could post about events at their sites and discuss them. Of course, RWL would have more affiliates after a while: there are many promisances out there and you could benefit from membership exchanges with those as well. I am not "bent on" the login page. I am "bent on" friendship, and mutual cooperation.
You could see the above as satisfying both points (1) and (3).

I am very glad that you address (2) as you do. When we announce the affiliation of our sites, it will be a perfect time to add that rule in writing to the forum rules.

I know (4) is the most sensitive issue, and I put it in the "optional" parts, but I feel it is important, so please think about it.


Lastly, just in case you misunderstand me. I am indeed trying to reach a compromise. I made points (3) and (4) which I would be glad about, "optional". It is just that I see points (1) and (2) as essential to the discussions.

~Beatles

[Devari]

I'd also like to point out that the "Affiliates" idea presents some really cool oportunities to "get into" the outside Promisance community (there is one, just simply not with us in it) and create a global network of cooperating Promisance. Your idea for Ragnarok (although I would probably prefer to create a seperate server) could fit into this... We could have a "Duels"-style server where "all-star" clans from the different servers could face off in a more neutral environment*. Funness!

There is current source available in the Jan. 22nd release. Technically we could fix all the bugs from that. However, as I said before and Beatles confirmed, we need assurances and trust from Retto that changes would be incorporated.

One advantage of FAF is that we have 3 or 4 coders. Thus, someone can almost always get the work done when needed.



* Ragnarok players would have an advantage, you say? Not if we don't want them to. All game information and a basic strategy guide would be available weeks before hand, and tweaking could be used to throw off traditional Rag strategies.

[wolf bite]

Yes, yes. This is the tone and spirit of cooperation I was hoping for. Thanks for taking a seat. * Orders a pot of coffee *

I was and am deadly serious when I said I have not coded since Dos came out. Was rather good at it too. I have made no pretence that I don’t understand much of the modern terminology of programming, for I don’t and don’t have much of a need. A lot of what a beginner says goes right over my head.

Much of the talk about Retto’s code is Japanese to me. I have no first hand knowledge whether it is a bad program or just highly hacked, thus making it look so. And I care not to argue on a matter I have no facts and little understanding.

I do not have the code nor access to the programming beyond the powers that can be seen. I draw lines as to what my job is and can not, will not, overstep. Retto is my boss! We only talk about once a week. So I am saying that your offers to me concerning his code are ones I can not respond to.

If, as I would like to assume, the true intent is one of friendship and assistance, then those that will look and help with his code would have to gain the trust and companionship of Retto.

I will get back on other matters when time allows.


Wolf Bite

[The Beatles]

Retto is your boss, yes. However, he is not willing to sit down with us and talk as you are. Therefor you, as a representative of the RWL staff (note, not leader, but representative, so that is hardly overstepping your responsibility) might talk to him about this matter. I am not asking you to deal with it, but to pass it on to whoever it needs to be passed on to: in this case, Retto.
Anxiously await reply on other matters.

[wolf bite]

Okay, I grabbed Retto between some of his other things he is doing and we walked about looking at what has been posted.

Paraphrasing Retto:

On the issue of the Source Code.

“I don’t feel the code is that bug prone. All codes do have some bugs, ours are just looked for more then most other sites. However I am interested to find and fix any bugs that there may be out there. The down loadable zip is (with only a few minor lines differences) the active source for regular. I would be appreciative and be active in having any bugs pointed out to me. However I take great exception with those bugs being exploited. The code is operational on your own computer and there is no need to prove on an active game that the bug exists. You have the code, look it over, run the program, find a bug, send me mail showing the line that should be changed, a recommendation if you have one, and I will fix it with a thanks.�

On the issue of advertising.

“It is a misunderstanding that my objection to advertising is FAF related. It is a moral and personal objection to banners, spam, and excessive cluttering of any site, including my own or me doing so to others. I will not even allow the mail option to be used to notify past and present members of RWL as to our own updates.�


Wolf Bite