Israel

[Kraken]

and........? why do you think that is bEatle butT??

you complain about putting cash out and then you say that is what America is all about! get it straight man! and the Benifits!? duh! Democracy baby, land of the free. that is why said benifits even exist! open your eyes and see the reasons or go back to Hungary where you will find such things lacking.
its okay to be jealous of the USA, i undertand that. but at the same time, enjoy it and dont debunk it just because you dont understand it. come to terms with what the USA has and then get over it. we want your cash! and republicans are all robots! democrats are painted mexicans! and the statue of liberty is actually a giant pokemon!

[Devari]

Wow... Interesting to see the difference between Canada and the US.

Beatles, you are welcome to join us up north.

[Freenhult]

You know, your both right and wrong.... and your not meeting in the middle anytime soon. *Gets popcorn*

[Kraken]

no, dear freen, i am quite right and the fallacy of others is that they know it. they just dont want to admit it.

here is some good links:

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/os ... ittens.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745287.html
oooo! here is some of yer beloved UKs stance:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746155.html how sweet for the UK to offer some security!
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746081.html good ol' innocent Irans current take on it all

[The Beatles]

I don't see what your problem is with my stance. My stance is very simple, and I can sum it up for you point-by-point.

1. Most European and North American countries have liberal democracies. This means freedom of the press, guaranteed human rights, etc.
2. For historical reasons, much of Eastern Europe is very poor and corrupt, so I would not like to live there.
3. America is the wealthiest nation on Earth.
4. America provides the best widely-accredited medical education on Earth (see point 3). To some extent the UK, France and Sweden compete. I partly came to America because paradoxically before the EU-join, Hungarians had a better chance of coming here.
5. I am very grateful to America for letting me study here.
6. I quite like American society except for the lack of culture, obesity, ignorence (with accompanying rudeness) and violence. This state is not pervasive, but too much for my comfort. Thus I don't wish to live here all my life.
7. I owe no gratefulness to America for my education, as I am paying for it. Point 4 is all I am grateful for.
8. I will not go to Canada as it has only a handful of decent medical universities and those are mostly anxious for Canadians.
9. Where will I go to when I have obtained a medical education? I do not know. Most likely one of Canada, UK, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Switzerland -- in no particular order. Maybe even the US, I don't know at this point.
10. The foreign policy of a nation I live in does not excessively bother me, within reason. America's foreign policy or internal policy does not bother me either. I don't care about NSA surveillance, for instance. This is because even a rudimentary understanding of our current most modern infrastructure will reveal that the government has not a shadow of the resources required to even start infringing the average citizen's privacy (unless they're flying).

Whee, 10 points exacly. Anyways, clear?

[Gen. Volkov]

Bugger it.. was going to try to thoughtfully comment on the Kraken-Beatles thingy, but I don't care enough. *laughs*. Only one thing: Devari, Kraken is not representative of most Americans. I am not either, but I've never claimed that. *laughs*. Having been to both countries, the only real difference is the accent and the number of fast food places, Mcdonald's is everywhere, but the rest of them are pretty much confined to the big cities. Well, that and Canadians tend to be a bit friendlier than Americans. Other than that, despite all the arguing over it, the two countries are quite similar. Which is part of the reason Canada and the UK have been the staunchest allies of America since 1900 or so. And we are their staunchest allies. Oh and Australia, which I like to think of as America with a buzz and a suntan. Hehe.

Ten bob.. that's what 20 bucks? Meh, I have a low enough bank account already. Besides, I wouldn't want to be hoping for a pan-Mideast war. Thing is, most of the countries over there hate Israel. So any war involving Israel tends to broaden instead of staying confined. The only exception was the 1982 war with Lebanon. And that's only cause it ended quickly. If we can get this war to do the same, we have a chance at it not getting bigger, but by all accounts, the Israeli's are pushing deeper. Right now, only two powers are rooting for Hezbollah. But if an Arab power joins in, the situation would probably cascade into a very big war, with all of Israel's historical enemies attacking her. Course this is just conjecture on my part. And given the smacking Israel has given the Arab powers every time they have attacked her, they are probably hesistant to do so now. Especially if that meant a major western power jumping into the fray on Israel's side.

[Kraken]

good grief Beatle butt, the NSA spy thing has NOTHING to do with the average citizen. for pete's sake, quit reading the liberal press!

and as for your points: huzzah! i am fine with them, except for the #6:

6. I quite like American society except for the lack of culture, obesity, ignorence (with accompanying rudeness) and violence. This state is not pervasive, but too much for my comfort. Thus I don't wish to live here all my life.

erm, a majority of England, UK and Europe, whatever, is especially known for its rudeness and dear me, violence. and! lack of culture indeed! you know it not i assume. come down here in the south pardner, i will show you culture in a handful of red clay. as for obesity, i know america is getting fat, *laughs*, so am i for that matter! but! so is most industrialised countries! hurray! as for ignorance: hmmm.....your getting your education here right?.........
besides, view points do not make another ignorant, just simply different!

[Freenhult]

6. I quite like American society except for the lack of culture, obesity, ignorence (with accompanying rudeness) and violence. This state is not pervasive, but too much for my comfort. Thus I don't wish to live here all my life

Lack of Culture? Are you serious...How is there a lack of culture? Go anywhere and the entire place is different. Obesity, Granted, it happens. But that's because we can afford food. Lots of it. Ignorance? No...Not by a long shot. People are ignorant all over the world. People aren't going to listen to a nobody like us. I blow off people I don't know that try to tell me stupid things. It isn't ignorance, its more annoyance. Violence? Sure we have more, and some of it is bad, but come on. Your going to have it where ever you go. Where I am, I don't see alot...'cept on the news.

7. I owe no gratefulness to America for my education, as I am paying for it. Point 4 is all I am grateful for.

You think I'm going for free too? No way...very few people get to go for free, so I don't see what your beef is. In fact, my girlfriend from China is going to a college near me. She isn't getting peanuts for aid either. She is sooo happy to be able to come to the US and go to college. Theres no reason why any college had to let you in, nor the border gaurd people. Fact is they did, and be grateful that you get to go the school you want to. Whether it be in the US or Canada or England.

10. The foreign policy of a nation I live in does not excessively bother me, within reason. America's foreign policy or internal policy does not bother me either. I don't care about NSA surveillance, for instance. This is because even a rudimentary understanding of our current most modern infrastructure will reveal that the government has not a shadow of the resources required to even start infringing the average citizen's privacy (unless they're flying).

Pah! If I was studing in England, and I heard that they were spying on the people. I'd be upset. Just because I'm not a citizen, doesn't mean I don't have the basic human rights to privacy and respect.

[Nuclear Raunch]

Kraken: I'm not sure why your arguing the NSA thing since I'm pretty sure Beatles has the same viewpoint about it as you do. And when he says ingorant I think he's referring to our lack of understanding of other cultures more than a lack of educational facilities. Here in Beatles' defense is a damning bit of evidence about the ignorance in many Americans. A proganada marvel. Just a shame it happened here.


Freen: You're absolutely right about the violence on the news. It is vastly overreported. Unfortunately we do have a high violent crime rate, especially in comparison to countries such as Canada, but the perception is worse than reality due to the overreporting we have over here.

He doesn't strike me as being bitter about having to pay for it or anything like that. Just that he simply does not feel the need to be grateful for getting what you buy. He seems to treat buying an American education the same as you or I would treat McDonalds for selling us a hamburger. We don't view McDonalds any differently (good or bad) because they sold us a hamburger.

I could be wrong about any and all of this, and I should let him answer for himself, but I'm bored so I will give my take on his comments.

BTW I strongly disagree with Beatles on the NSA thing. Yes I realize that the simple logistics of it makes it impossible for the government to track all of us with our current technology, however I think giving them the leeway to spy on private citizens without due process is a mistake. It's not like we give them this newfound power and they will stop there, they will continue trying to take things to the next level. And who knows what future technology holds? It's possible that within 10 years they would be able to monitor every phone call we make. What will we do then? Try to change the laws after the gov. has been able to do it for 10 years? Good luck on that one. It's much easier to never give a dog a bone than to give it and try to take it back later.

[The Beatles]

Nuke, thanks for stepping in and representing me. I fully agree with everything you said, and was going to say it except you went ahead and did it for me.

America has a high divide between the upper and lower classes. People who get an American masters or higher education get a world-class education. Your average person who attends highschool, community college, or maybe even college in the case of some institutions, does not get much of an education even compared to say highschool in Hungary.

The same goes for culture. America has produced wonderful culture, I love many of your authors (among my favorites) and even some of your film directors/actors. The cream is great, but the vast average of American culture is pretty terrible, as is the average social attitude towards it.

I've said before I am very grateful to America for admitting me here to study and for letting me work for money at my institution. All I'm saying is that's where my gratefulness stops, which I consider perfectly reasonable.

Nuke, you're right that there is a potential for danger. But I believe that no surveillance system will ever be fully automatic. And as long as it's not, a human is required, and that's where the effective surveillance breaks down. Sure, it can get very bad, even 30's technology allowed the Gestapo to be terrible.

I'm willing to concede that part of the violence is just overreporting. I have little experience of violence in any country, so feel free to strike that from my list.

[Kraken]

hmmm....
how much "American Culture" have you really experienced Beatles?
really??
hmmmm?
or does your tunnel vision stop at what you see in the media *points to your reference to actors* ??

really?

i tell you now, you know maybe 4% of American culture at best, that would be my guess. you know not the ways of the average person outside of your university and your television or internet.

[Nuclear Raunch]

http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/ ... /i_VIC.HTM

Crime stats amongst industrialized nations.

Beatles: Another facet that I had not thought of originally is the possiblity for abuse amongst individual members law enforcement. If they can tap at will with no oversight or repercussions I think the temptation will be much too great for some to bear. Then we can get into tapping of cheating spouses, personal vendettas, where there may be financially important information, etc for both the tapper's personal use, or for the use of others. I have a hard time imagining that of all the people with the authority to tap not one would have no moral qualms about using it for purposes other than originally intended.

[The Beatles]

Sure. But I also know only 5% of European culture, and that representation seems to be much better than the 5% of American culture that is represented to me.

[Gen. Volkov]

Just a point about the US having the highest number of violent crimes. We have the most of any industrialized country, but we are also the the third most populous nation on Earth. I think percentagewise, we match the rest of the industrialized countries. And the crime rate is going down, where, in alot of places, it is on the increase. But the media does vastly overreport it, so it seems much worse.

Which reminds me, ABC is having a show about those two "Wolf boys". That pisses me off. "Unexplained by science" my arse, it's a rare genetic disorder which causes hair to grow all over your body like it does on your head and (for males) beard. Irresponsible is what it is.

About the NSA wiretapping. Beatles is correct for right now. The thing is, while I don't believe everyone who works at the NSA has our best interests at heart, I do not think they are some nefarious organization who want's to be like the Gestapo. The majority of people working there probably just want better tools to protect the American people. That includes wiretapping. So while it does disturb me, it doesn't disturb me as much as it might other people. Because I know a government agent, and he's not a bad person at all. He's a father and a good husband. For security reasons, though, I can't tell you who he is.

[The Beatles]

Actually, US is higher in percentage. Nuke has stats somewhere.