Politics - American

[Gen. Volkov]

Volkov: Bush's economic policies worked for who? Last time I checked the only segment of the entire US population that improved their financial status was the wealthy. Everyone else is now making less money than they were before Bush took office. $1,300 a year less to be precise. Don't forget that it will take us decades if not centuries of great economic leadership (yeah, I'm holding my breath to) for us to get out of the hole he dug for us. Hell, if we can just pay the interest on what he's borrowed for the next 20 years I'll be VERY impressed. I have a hard-on for fiscal responsibility so things like that bother me, but unfortunately with the way people nowadays are trained to live on credit cards I'm in a quickly shrinking minority.

I can't believe a city councilman would be stupid enough to make a comment like that, let alone a former Presidential candidate. He did have a joke well set up, but the punchline should have been something about Bush's cabinet rather than a soldier. Not that I don't disagree with the simple fact that the military is a haven for the "intellectually challenged", that's just not something one in the public eye should say.

Windy reminded me of something, what was the point behind Rummy leaving? Everyone knew he was a political liability coming in to the election, so if they were planning on replacing him why not do it before the election? And if it's a response to the election results, why bother? It's too early for that to help you in the next election, if you're trying to do it to gain cooperation from Democrats why not wait until the new Congress/Senate convenes? That way it's fresh in their minds, or even offer up his head in exchange for passage of XYZ.

In reverse order:

I think Bush let Rummy resign because he wanted to resign, I don't think it was a political play, and he tried to show that by doing it after the election.

The military is not a haven for the intellectually challenged. I'm sure some do end up there, but for the most part the modern military requires far more technical skill and intelligence than many jobs I can think of. I have yet to meet a stupid member of our armed forces. There's a member of the Army in my Organic Chemistry class, and he's setting the curve. He's an officer, but he just became one. (And yes I know a sample of one is not a good sample, but it's just one example out of many.)

That $1300 less is actually up from what we were making during the recession I believe. It's a wonderful statistic to quote, but if you look at the whole picture, I think it's meaningless. The National debt was gigantic before Bush got into office, and it would have required decades to get out of regardless of what Bush had done. Sure he made the hole a bit deeper, but it's like the difference between being at the bottom of a 50 foot well or a 55 foot well, you are screwed either way. (I'm not holding my breath either, and I understand your concern about the debt, but honestly we've been screwed on that issue ever since the 70's when our imports exceeded our exports for the first time. I'm big on fiscal responsibility myself actually. I have one credit card, and I barely use it.)

And by the way, if you look at the history, a budget surplus is actually worse than a budget deficit. Every time we've had a surplus, the economy has gone into the tank not very long after, every time we've had deficits, the economy has boomed.

[The Beatles]

OT again: there are actually instances when it is impossible for a poor person to move forward without being "fiscally irresponsible": i.e. taking out a loan and using that instead of what he can make his own. But this is just common sense. Buying a TV you shouldn't be able to afford on a credit card is just stupid, but most people don't draw the line.

[Nuclear Raunch]

Nobody in washington takes a dump without thinking about the political implications.

Having taken the ASVAB test and seeing that the average score for the ASVAB is a 42, I stand behind my statement. Have any reasonably intelligent person take the ASVAB and only answer every other question and I will almost guarantee you will get higher than a 42. By far one of the easiest tests I have ever taken. Here's how bad it is, it is easier to join the military than it is to place in 101 classes at a junior college. The minimum requirements for the different branches range from 31-36, and they make exceptions for people all the way down to 21. I could score that with a BAC of .20% and never even break a sweat. (Granted, any Irishman worth his salt could do the same )

Looking at the whole economic picture, can you point out any signs that show any kind of improvement in the wealth of the lower 90% of Americans on the pay scale? The stock market is doing solid right now, but 80% of stocks are owned by 10% of all Americans so I'd say that's more of a sign of how the top 10% are doing than anyone else.

A "bit" deeper? A 50 or a 55 foot well? Well I can't accuse you of overexaggerating a problem, that's for sure. According to the Whitehouse's own site he's looking at just a hair under double the size of the debt. If your wife had a credit card problem that ended up costing you 1 weeks pay every month and she turned around and turned that into a 2 week a month problem, would you say that it's a "bit" higher or would you put an immediate stop to her spending?

As a % of the GDP, national debt actually dropped slightly during the 70's. From 1981-1993 it skyrocketed, then dropped until 2001. That's why I point to the 80's as the time Republicans really started their shift away from small, responsible government.

[The Beatles]

OT: Are you of Irish descent, then?

[Nuclear Raunch]

OT: Are you of Irish descent, then?

I'm a freckled, red headed alcoholic, you do the math

[The Beatles]

Yes, convincing. Did you ever trace your descent?

[Gen. Volkov]

I'm sure they don't Nuke, but I think it's that very thought process that led to Bush accepting Rummy's resignation after the elections, he was trying to minimize the view that it was political. Backfired horribly like usual though. Can't think of a good time to release the guy really. Before the election, it seems like he's trying to boost the pubbies election chances, too long after, he's finally caving to democratic pressure. Right after.. it's some sort of reaction to the election. If he's trying to avoid the political motivations view, there never is a good time.

The ASVAB may allow in ridiculously low scores, but I bet those people don't get any positions much past janitor or potato peeler. For the real menial stuff, I suppose yes it's a haven, but then it's the same way in the civilian world. The important stuff, like weapons handlers, aircraft and vehicle maintenance, and actual combat is handled by people who are pretty intelligent. I find it rather insulting that you think only dumb people go into the military, or even that the majority are dumb people. It's just not true.

Yes. Go here. Census report. Graph shows exactly what I said. Average income is down from the high before the recession, but it's coming back up from it's low point.

But I can accuse you of overexxageration. At the end of Clinton's term, the Nat. Debt. was about 6 trillion, it is currently 8 trillion. How in the hell is that in any way double? I can cite you article and the gov'ts own "national debt clock" if you wish. Maybe it's a bit of an understatement to say 50-55 for hole. More like a 50 to 60 foot hole. Still doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the end, you are still way down in the well and relief doesn't look to be coming any time soon. If my wife had a spending problem, but every time she spent more, I made more money.. I think I'd prolly let her keep spending.

The drop as a % of the GDP of the debt was more due to the rise in the GDP while the debt stayed relatively stable than the debt actually getting smaller. Now keeping the debt stable was an accomplishment, but in the 80's, the economy had tanked again, and the spending by Reagan and then Bush was probably why it was so revitalized by the time Clinton took office. And that spending really had little to do with the size of government, it was mostly defense spending. Which, as you know, was done to try and spend the Soviets in oblivion, and it worked. The Soviet Union collapsed trying to keep up with the vast increase in American defense spending.

[Nuclear Raunch]

Yes, my descent started very, very early in life, but it accelerated after I hit puberty (2 months ago)

If you mean ancestral descent then no. My aunt (Mom on forums, although she hasn't played prom in some time) has done a fair amount of geneology though. IIRC the Irish side came over around 1700-1710.

[Gen. Volkov]

OT: I'm Irish too Nuke. XD. Well part, mostly I'm a mongrel. *laughs*. Half polish(with a little russian mixed in there), 1/4 german, and then grab bag of English, Irish, and Scottish, or possibly Scots-Irish instead of separate Irish and Scottish, not sure, my mom's genealogy isn't too clear there. (Yes I know what Scots-Irish is XD)

[Freenhult]

Wow...I'm like Volkov. Except 1/2 Polish, 1/2 UK. Pretty clear where I am.

[Nuclear Raunch]

No way I would give any politician the benefit of the doubt on anything like that

Ken Mehlman, whom I've thought was a fairly charismatic person, also stepped down. Presumably because the Repblican Party's image went down quite a bit under his tenure.

I don't think all military personnel are dumb, (my stepdad is a fairly intelligent 12 year Air Force vet) but I think that if someone is dumb the military is the perfect career. I may be wrong on this one, but I believe an ASVAB score of 60 is good enough for any job except special forces, and those require 80. A score of 80 is what I would consider somewhat above average but not spectacular. 60 is mediocre at best.

According to the Census report it has dropped every single year of his presidency until the last year. Throw in the difference in the cost of living and the vast majority of Americans are all substantially poorer now than we were when he took over in 2001. Now during the same period look at what's happened with the top 10%. Rich get richer.

National debt in 2001 was $5,769,881,000,000, projected national debt after 8 years of Bush's presidency is $10,436,944,000,000. Table 7.1 And that's assuming we don't have any more emergency Iraq funding requests, which probably won't happen now that the Senate and the House are now both owned by Democrats. Basically, after 8 years the national debt will jump higher than it did in the first 216 years of this countries existence, 166 of those years came before we had income taxes. That is ridiculous. The worst part about it is that most of that debt is owned by foreign government controlled banks. All it takes is one country dumping all of their US debt and we are SCREWED big time. That's part of the reason why Alan Greenspan was always wanting us to pay down some of our debt a little at a time.

If the debt can stay stable while the GDP grows then that's not too terrible. Ideally you don't want the debt to be going down too fast anyway, as a sharp reduction in debt will hurt the economy.

[Gen. Volkov]

No way I would give any politician the benefit of the doubt on anything like that wink.gif

*laughs*, right then. Never gonna agree on that one.

I don't think all military personnel are dumb, (my stepdad is a fairly intelligent 12 year Air Force vet) but I think that if someone is dumb the military is the perfect career. I may be wrong on this one, but I believe an ASVAB score of 60 is good enough for any job except special forces, and those require 80. A score of 80 is what I would consider somewhat above average but not spectacular. 60 is mediocre at best.

Yeah, um.. the max possible is a 99. So 80 is a B in school terms. That's solidly above average. 60 is a D.. so yeah. About 60.. not good enough for alot of Air Force jobs, but a 70 will suffice. Thing is, these are minimum scores, not maximum, and I just don't think the military is gonna put an idiot at the controls of a fighter. All my experience tells me that the military is not filled with dumb people. It has it's share, but so does the general population.

According to the Census report it has dropped every single year of his presidency until the last year. Throw in the difference in the cost of living and the vast majority of Americans are all substantially poorer now than we were when he took over in 2001. Now during the same period look at what's happened with the top 10%. Rich get richer.

How exactly is this a refutation of what I said? I never denied we aren't as well off as we were in 2001. But that's not Bush's fault. That's Clintons legacy + 9/11. The 2005 data is what is pertinent here. The average income is rising. Show me some data on that top 10% and then maybe I might agree with you on that last statement about the rich getting richer, cause my family sure isn't, and we are fairly well off.

National debt in 2001 was $5,769,881,000,000, projected national debt after 8 years of Bush's presidency is $10,436,944,000,000. Table 7.1 And that's assuming we don't have any more emergency Iraq funding requests, which probably won't happen now that the Senate and the House are now both owned by Democrats. Basically, after 8 years the national debt will jump higher than it did in the first 216 years of this countries existence, 166 of those years came before we had income taxes. That is ridiculous. The worst part about it is that most of that debt is owned by foreign government controlled banks. All it takes is one country dumping all of their US debt and we are SCREWED big time. That's part of the reason why Alan Greenspan was always wanting us to pay down some of our debt a little at a time.

Firstly, I don't give a projection like that much credence, because it's based on little besides current trends, and we don't know what the next two years are going to be like, in fact, I highly doubt it's accuracy even based on current trends. It's jumped from 5.7 to 8.6 in 5 years, so where are they getting 10.4 from in two years?. Secondly, where is that table? I'm going with current figures, which are not double.

Most of the debt is in fact owed to ourselves though. The largest single debt we owe is to Japan, for 700 billion, China and Britain are 2nd and 3rd, but all of them together, and everyone else we owe only take up about 1/5 of the total debt at max. Most of it is in fact owed to the American people.

(The other stuff I essentially agree with or can't argue, or don't care enough to argue *laughs*)

[Devari]

I love the "Bush!Bush!Bush!Bush!" thing on the first page... In fact, most of the first page is pretty funny. :*laughs*:

[Nuclear Raunch]

Bah FF crashed on me after I had a bunch of crap written out. In brief, pilots are officers so they don't take the ASVAB, however I saw no Air Force jobs requiring anything over a 55. Intel and air traffic controller stand out to me as being 2 jobs that would sure be nice to have a somewhat elevated standard for entry.

The worst part of the FF crash is finding that damn table. I had to sift through a ton of links to find it too. Anyway income for the top had grown by 37%.

5+2=7, Bush has an 8 year term. And table 7.1 (click on link, then click on table 7.1 on the left side) is actually counting on Bush to slow down on his spending. With Democratcs now in charge of the House and Senate he actually probably will, but not by choice.

Most of the debt is owed to American's, but a solid 44% is still owned by foreigners. Waaaayyyyy more than needed to send us into a Great Depressionesque economic tailspin overnight. Some foreign banks have already started slowly selling off US debt over concerns of our trade and budget deficits, and we are in danger of the snowball effect of a nonmalicious sell off as well as a malicious kind.

Meh guess that wasn't brief, but far less than my original.

[Devari]

Bah FF crashed on me after I had a bunch of crap written out. In brief, pilots are officers so they don't take the ASVAB, however I saw no Air Force jobs requiring anything over a 55. Intel and air traffic controller stand out to me as being 2 jobs that would sure be nice to have a somewhat elevated standard for entry.

The worst part of the FF crash is finding that damn table. I had to sift through a ton of links to find it too. Anyway income for the top had grown by 37%.

5+2=7, Bush has an 8 year term. And table 7.1 (click on link, then click on table 7.1 on the left side) is actually counting on Bush to slow down on his spending. With Democratcs now in charge of the House and Senate he actually probably will, but not by choice.

Most of the debt is owed to American's, but a solid 44% is still owned by foreigners. Waaaayyyyy more than needed to send us into a Great Depressionesque economic tailspin overnight. Some foreign banks have already started slowly selling off US debt over concerns of our trade and budget deficits, and we are in danger of the snowball effect of a nonmalicious sell off as well as a malicious kind.

Meh guess that wasn't brief, but far less than my original.

Firefox 2 has session restore.