The Old Chestnut

[The Beatles]

4. Still not had time to look up statistics.

6. Forgot what this was about but it ended up into a look-for-statistics game as well. *sigh*

As you said, Louisana is a limited form of it, and what's more it's small scale.

5. I'll give you scale, but no other objection...

Where'd you get the 1.3 from?

19. You said 20-30%. I took the high end.

No, I meant as a proportion of total income, the average Joe is getting the most taken. Say a rich guy makes 500k a year, he is in the highest bracket of 45%. He get's 225k taken. Not that big a loss, he still has 275k left to spend a year. Now let's look at a middle class guy who makes, say, 60k a year. His tax bracket is say, 35%. So 21k is taken, leaving him with 39k a year. Who do you think feels it more? The rich guys pays more, but he feels it much less. That's what I meant when I said "the burden falls on the middle class." (Using the numbers you gave, using my numbers it's different end result for both, but still winds up with the middle class guy feeling it more)

I'd argue that the percent taken is the best indicator. Otherwise you could say that the poorest feel it worst. Although Bill Gates may be able to pay his rent and food despite a million-dollar income-tax cheque (just hypothetical), don't tell me he doesn't feel it. Anyway this is pretty irrelevant isn't it?

17. Yes. I am sure the people who said yes weren't saying yes to a very shoddy implementation of it, though.

20 is still open for Kraken...

[Nuclear Raunch]

The stats like doctors per 1000, nurses per thousand do partially support your claim, but while they are lower, that doesn't mean that the quality of care received is any worse when they do get to see a doctor, and furthermore, the ratio we do have is plenty adequate, because we don't have long waitlists, and other things that indicate a lack of doctors. So basically what you have to go on is life expectancy and such, which are heavily influenced by the culture.

6. If you have less doctors per patients, and no waitlists, that means less visits or shorter visits to the doctor. That is fairly black and white.

I see your point and while it's generally correct I'd like to add to it. Doctor's may work longer hours or take fewer days off to help ease the burden, and also a greater prevalence in the use of nurse-practitioners in lieu of doctors.

[The Beatles]

That's true. I heard somewhere that doctors allocate fixed times to patients (typically 5-10 minutes) for most visits, and the nurse always does all the miscellaneous stuff the doctor used to do in Hungary (blood pressure, background, etc.) That certainly is more efficient, not sure how it is in W. Europe.

[Gen. Volkov]

4. Still not had time to look up statistics.

K then. Whenever you get the chance.

6. Forgot what this was about but it ended up into a look-for-statistics game as well. *sigh*

Yes, well, in something like this, statistics are generally needed, and since you are claiming it, I would say the burden of proof is on you.

5. I'll give you scale, but no other objection...

Well, you said yourself that Louisiana did not have a true UHC system. Are you saying differently now?

19. You said 20-30%. I took the high end

Oh, ok, sorry, I meant something different than that. I was saying that the difference between our taxes and the taxes for a good UHC system is 20-30 percentage points. i.e, our highest bracket is 35%, Frances highest is like 55% or something like that.

I'd argue that the percent taken is the best indicator. Otherwise you could say that the poorest feel it worst. Although Bill Gates may be able to pay his rent and food despite a million-dollar income-tax cheque (just hypothetical), don't tell me he doesn't feel it. wink.gif Anyway this is pretty irrelevant isn't it?

Actually, unless you have a really progressive tax code, the poor are going to feel it the worst. I think our code is progressive enough for them to be not as heavily affected as the middle class though. I'm sure Bill Gates feels it when they tax his income, but you have to agree that he feels it much less than the average Joe does. I guess it's kinda irrelevant, it was just an off-hand comment in the first place. But I do think that the middle class are going to feel the effect of tax hike the most, just like always.

17. Yes. I am sure the people who said yes weren't saying yes to a very shoddy implementation of it, though.

Never can tell, that's why I don't like polls like that.