Neoconservatism vs conservatism

You can talk about anything here, not necessarily game-related. You may also advertise here.
Post Reply
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Here is a good Slashdot post.
http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.p ... d=19015177

I reproduce it for convenience as I found it helpful.
The election in France will almost prove to be the single most important event in this decade, for this election signals a tidal shift back to asserting that Western values are superior. This tidal shift will be resolutely proved if the French citizens give control of the French National Assembly to pro-Sarkozy politicians in June.

Note that Sarkozy is not a neoconservative in the American sense. In European culture, he may seem very conservative, but in American culture, he is mostly a moderate populist. He wants to maximize the wealth for the middle class, not the upper class.

Allow me to elaborate. First, he opposes an open-border policy. Most American neoconservatives favor an open-border policy because they like to use illegal and legal immigration to suppress wages. American agribusiness, not just Hispanic groups like La Raza, are the strongest advocates for allowing the importation of desperate foreign labor.

Sarkozy supports strong restrictions on immigration but favors treating immigrants kindly. The concept of immigrants working 14+ hours per day is considered to be cruel. He does not favor such brutal working conditions. Note that both parents of Seung Hui Cho, the mass murderer at Virginia Tech, worked 14+ hours per day. Neoconservatives applaud this situation: with glee, they self-servingly "praise" the hardworking nature of the Korean parents are. The consequence is that his parents were just too busy at work to give Seung Hui Cho the proper care that he needed. They never even noticed his rapid mental degeneration.

Second, Sarkozy supports globalization with only other free markets. So, he supports the European Union. However, he opposes fake free trade with non-free markets like India. He realizes that this kind of trade drives down the quality of life in France. He realizes that combining a free market and a non-free market damages the operation of the free market.

By contrast, American neoconservatives favor fake free trade with non-free markets like India.

Nonetheless, Sarkozy will (if the legislative election in June is favorable) will vastly transform France. It will not be the brutal kind (i.e., 14+ hours of work by illegal aliens) of capitalism in America. Rather, France will be a kinder, gentler economic superpower. If he succeeds (and I think that he will), I would likely prefer to live in France instead of America.
Obviously there is some idealization. But it also serves to illustrate the different flavors conservatism comes in. I am not, in general, a conservative, as conservatives in the past have been opposed to progress. I am opposed to progress for progress' sake, but not in general to progress for a good cause. Some elements of our past are superior to what we have now, but many are not. Sarkozy, on the whole, I find intelligent and not hard to agree with.

The rather interesting point is what's noted in the first paragraph. I have definitely noticed this trend in recent years, among others in myself. I think Sarkozy's comments in an interview half a year ago were partly those that inspired me to definitely reject blind multiculturalism. By and large, the trend has grown out of reaction to fundamentalist Islam, so it is unimportant, but the actual idea behind the trend is remarkably simple and durable: all societies are not equal. Many Western values are indeed superior to the average of other value systems (and some are not, of course).

I didn't post in the shoutbox as I actually wanted to write something. But I don't mean to post as flamebait or to troll, so if there isn't a need for a debate, that's great. :)
:wq
User avatar
Gen. Volkov
I'm blue, if I was green I would die.
Posts: 2342
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Boringtown, Indiana

Post by Gen. Volkov »

I could probably write something intelligent and meaningful here, but I am tired, so instead I will be a total bigot: FRANCE SUCKS!!!! XD

Ok, that out of the way, I will post something intelligent and meaningful tomorrow, when all my brain cells are firing.
It is said that when Rincewind dies, the occult ability of the human race will go UP by a fraction. -Terry Pratchett
User avatar
Nuclear Raunch
The Wanderer
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 4:30 am

Post by Nuclear Raunch »

Gen. Volkov wrote: I could probably write something intelligent and meaningful here, but I am tired, so instead I will be a total bigot: FRANCE SUCKS!!!! XD

Ok, that out of the way, I will post something intelligent and meaningful tomorrow, when both of my brain cells are firing.
FIFY :P
I know the voices in my head arn't real but they usually have some pretty good ideas.
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

FIFY == Fixed It For Ya.

Live and learn.
:wq
User avatar
windhound
Fish Rocketh, cows sucketh
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:36 pm
Location: Ze Ocean

Post by windhound »

Slight idealistic tendencies noted

also, calling out the parents of the VTech murder for not spending time with their son (for whatever reason you give) is wrong. the kid was a Senior, he took actions on his own free will. His teachers and peers had noticed he wasnt quite right, and he had actually spent time in a mental institution. This was not his parents fault, and the fact that they showed his parent's house and put their address on the news is downright wrong and put them at risk. He had been out of the house for going on 4 years at that point, and to point out that his overworked parents didnt have more time to spend with him seems overly oppurtinistic
Hobbs FTW!
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

Neoconservatism vs conservatism
this article is crap. it points out views that are biased and untrue unless you buy into them and see them as truth. i.e.:
He wants to maximize the wealth for the middle class, not the upper class.
you see, that is a Very sterotypical view of conservatism and it is also quite untrue. i would like to point out that anyone who runs for power is only interested in said power and the upperclass is the only way they achieve it (funds and such) but they mull the middle and lower classes to achieve thier ultimate victory. heh, i am what is considered lower middle class in my society but i value the conservative approach on things. but what do i know eh? such as this crack pot writ:
Most American neoconservatives favor an open-border policy because they like to use illegal and legal immigration to suppress wages
hmmm...lets see....when has any political party on the left or right done anything for the border??!?? has there been any democrats screaming for us to do something about our borders???????? hmmmmm? it seems that most of the dissent on this is from the right and its the major problem i have with President Bush and his worker programs he is trying to push. agian, this is just steryotypical as the left wants those votes as well as the right. neither side is doing shit about it. bottom line.
here is some more crap:
The concept of immigrants working 14+ hours per day is considered to be cruel
i work twelve to fourteen hours a day as well as many others, more work = more pay and that is why most choose to do so. no one puts a gun to these criminals (illegal immergrants = crminals) and tells them to work work work! they chose it and they do it.
Note that both parents of Seung Hui Cho, the mass murderer at Virginia Tech, worked 14+ hours per day. Neoconservatives applaud this situation: with glee, they self-servingly "praise" the hardworking nature of the Korean parents are. The consequence is that his parents were just too busy at work to give Seung Hui Cho the proper care that he needed. They never even noticed his rapid mental degeneration.
holy lord, is that the biggest bunch of CRAP i have ever read in my entire life. i mean, every mass murderer out there has had parents who worked 14+ hours a day?!?? holy lord. crap crap crap.
I would likely prefer to live in France instead of America.
tell this bum to go. he wont be missed. oh, by the way, my two illegal crimnal neighbors do not work at all, nope, they get thier welfare check and have 5 kids. maybe they should get off thier asses.....
but hey! when he gets over to france, let him get a job and keep off the welfare and get the hell out of this country that he hates so much.

the kraken has spoken.
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

To be honest, I don't really care what you call yourself. As long as they do something to get the crapload of work and responsibilities off the middle class, I'm good with it.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Hey, I wasn't agreeing with all the article... but I do have to respond to some of what you said at least:

1. Some of your points only show that the left and right are on agreement on some things. That's just because, in the traditional sense, the American left and right wings are both right-wing, just one's more far right.

2. This thing about open borders, it's pretty common actually. Switzerland does it, for instance -- lets migrant workers in for the day or weekend. It keeps labor prices down. The US is blatantly obviously doing it too.

3. "The concept of immigrants working 14+ hours per day is considered to be cruel
i work twelve to fourteen hours a day as well as many others, more work = more pay and that is why most choose to do so. no one puts a gun to these criminals (illegal immergrants = crminals) and tells them to work work work! they chose it and they do it."

The thing is, you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you get dirt-cheap labor by letting everyone in, and you get lambasted for cruelty, or you let only a few people in, give everybody minimum wage, and suddenly more money than you like goes into the lower class. "Illegal immigrants" are a unique product of the immense wealth of America (relative to Mexico especially) and the nominally very strict border controls which are in practice very weak. The disparity between the stated immigration limits and the actual ones produces a huge class of illegal immigrants. Of course, there is illegal immigration to EU countries, just much less as the borders are actually enforced.

4. "holy lord, is that the biggest bunch of CRAP i have ever read in my entire life. i mean, every mass murderer out there has had parents who worked 14+ hours a day?!?? holy lord. crap crap crap."
Agreed, it's bollocks. I didn't want to pick and choose though.


But anyway he still has a lot of points on the differences between right-wings.
:wq
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

you can pour chocolate on crap and its still crap.

fine, but you know what, i have no sympathy to any of the criminals that cross into my nations sovernity and niether should anyone else in any other country. i say: send em all back intact or in body bags, in makes no difference to me.
and no, all this crap about history and blah blah blah how america was formed blah blah blah does not apply. these here be post modern times and to the victor goes the spoils.
beatles, the guys squashy inexperienced views on the "right-wings" are flawed and not true. sorry.
Illegal immigrants" are a unique product of the immense wealth of America (relative to Mexico especially) and the nominally very strict border controls which are in practice very weak.
piss on em is what i say. when the Mexican Government hands out booklets on how to cross into the USA, well then, its a whole different ball game eh? it Mexico trying to get rid of its garbage and its garbage dump is in the USA. a very vast portion of the garbage that makes its way across the border is just that: garbage. i just cant wait until we take back out the garbage.

all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Well, you never will, because your government wants them here. Whatever it says in public, it wants them here and that's how it's been for a long time. There's plenty of historical precedents to it too. Slavery is now illegal, so get the foreigners to come here under different pretenses.
:wq
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

*laughs*, your likening illegal immergration to slavery?!? what a FREAKING JOKE>.
i do see...outside of your point, however...pourous borders makes for pourous workers. i see that. your right, the government does not want to do anything about it, which i already pointed out.
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

What else should I compare it to? There isn't a single white janitor in any campus building. A lot of them are here legally, but that doesn't change the fact that, by and large, on average, it's a really convenient way to continue a white-supremacist system.
:wq
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

oh, holy lord, your true colors are really shining now beatles. white supremacist system eh? oh sweet jesus. you really have your ears attuned to to many libreal progressive outlets dont you?
i have seen plenty white male janitors here on my campus and why dont you go and find out the facts on your own campus and then post them here before saying you have met every last damned one of them and know thier situations. *laughs*.
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

I've met most of them. I talk to a few of them regularly. I am talking in averages.

I would be willing to believe that white supremacism is dead if it weren't for the fact that just 40 years ago a MLK got killed for proposing that black and white men should be equal in the US. (Sure, by extremists.)

The facts of the case are very straightforward. America is wealthy; America wants cheap labor. It leaves a very open border, but to make sure immigrants don't stay too long, it keeps official quotas very low (in comparison). It also gives other incentives for them to stay, such as free education for their kids. This is hardly unusual, Switzerland does it too.

OK, it mightn't be white supremacy but sheer xenophobia. It's hard to tell them apart when most immigrants are not white, but most Americans are.
:wq
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

The Beatles wrote: I've met most of them. I talk to a few of them regularly. I am talking in averages.

I would be willing to believe that white supremacism is dead if it weren't for the fact that just 40 years ago a MLK got killed for proposing that black and white men should be equal in the US. (Sure, by extremists.)

The facts of the case are very straightforward. America is wealthy; America wants cheap labor. It leaves a very open border, but to make sure immigrants don't stay too long, it keeps official quotas very low (in comparison). It also gives other incentives for them to stay, such as free education for their kids. This is hardly unusual, Switzerland does it too.

OK, it mightn't be white supremacy but sheer xenophobia. It's hard to tell them apart when most immigrants are not white, but most Americans are.
no, your talking out of your assuming ass.
OK, it mightn't be white supremacy but sheer xenophobia. It's hard to tell them apart when most immigrants are not white, but most Americans are.
*laughs*, so your saying that i have xenophobia? *laughs*, you dont know and its a stupid term that youve heard and are passing wrong. there is NOTHING wrong with want to keep ones borders secure, national language intact and ones culture in one piece. go back to hungary.
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
Post Reply
  • Members connected in real time

    🔒 Close the panel of connected members