Presidential Vote

[The Beatles]

I can't vote, but anyway a few comments:

* This is not a parliamentary democracy. Voting for anything but the two major parties is a wasted vote. So we don't even need to bother criticising the Greens on nuclear power or the Libertarians on social services.
* If you vote for McCain, you just may end up with Palin in the next 4 years. And that would be worse disaster than Bush for the environment, the economy, science, just about everything.
* It's important to distinguish between what a party claims they are and what they actually do. Notably:
* The Rebublican Party's supposed positions are fiscal stringency, social control, civil liberty, foreign aggressiveness, environmental disregard. Their positions when in power have been fiscal extravagance, social control, civil control, foreign aggressiveness, environmental disregard.
* The Democratic Party's supposed positions are fiscal extravagance, social liberty, civil liberty, foreign restraint, environmental disregard. Their positions when in power have been fiscal stringency, social liberty, civil control, foreign restraint, environmental disregard.
So, for instance, if you are a Libertarian and you support fiscal stringency, social liberty, civil liberty, and foreign restraint, and want to get what you want, then you should vote Democrat.

And indivual responses:
* Pointing out that Obama's middle name is Hussein is uncalled-for.
* Palin actually has very little political experience. She's run a city with less people in it than a high school, and been a state governor for 2 years.
* If you are complaining that ideals are not policy positions, you ought to consider candidates' policy positions instead of ideals and speeches. All candidates, presidential and vice-presidential, have web sites in which they make their positions abundantly clear. They also explain and expound these positions daily in speeches, interviews, letters, etc. I can't believe only Bjorn of all the people who posted something longer than a sentence to this thread bother to examine policy and come to a factual opinion instead of relying on how the media colours the candidates. All of the candidates stress simple ideals in their speeches (Hope and Change, Nation and Country, etc.): these are not their policy positions. Windy noticed this yet fell into it.

That said, I don't intend to debate candidates' policy in this thread. If you think a candidate's positions are socialist or fascists (which, Ruddertail, are actually opposite ends of the political spectrum; sort of extreme versions of the Democrats and Republicans, to use an American analogy) that's your call and your responsibility (and duty to be informed, as a voter).

[Freenhult]

Sometimes I wonder how you know all this stuff.

* If you vote for McCain, you just may end up with Palin in the next 4 years. And that would be worse disaster than Bush for the environment, the economy, science, just about everything.

Uh huh. Perhaps. And how can you predict this?

* Palin actually has very little political experience. She's run a city with less people in it than a high school, and been a state governor for 2 years.

Oh. Well. I'm sure that means everything. Running a town ain't easy. Granted you don't have the same problems, but even as Governor thats a huge jump in between. Give her time, instead of jumping on the poor lass right off the bat. I don't believe Bush ruined the economy and the world. Yes, he ordered a war. But still. I think most of the economies problems have to do with the way its set up more than the governments ability to fix it and lord over it.


* The Republican Party's supposed positions are fiscal stringency, social control, civil liberty, foreign aggressiveness, environmental disregard. Their positions when in power have been fiscal extravagance, social control, civil control, foreign aggressiveness, environmental disregard.

How ironic. The month before we elected a democratic governor in Michigan, the state was rolling in revenue profits. Schools weren't poor and jobs were plentiful. Granholm gets elected, and suddenly she changes policies for no reason. What happens? State goes broke, schools are junk now and unemployment is almost 9%. Sounds like great policies to me.

[Kraken]

lol @ Beatles

you can vote man, go ahead.
pointing out Obama's middle name is fine. its his freaking middle name.
saying that a...heh...hehe...Libertarian should vote Democrat...heh....hahahahaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dear me man.
you obviously have no idea what a Libertarian is nor the Socialist Democratic Party or the difference therin.
if you look at the way both the Dems and Reps behave once they are in office, it is very much in the middle nine times out of ten.
sure, there are extreme examples to contradict such as Regan, Carter or even Lincoln, but i think your "analysis" is too vauge.

Ahh...Palin hasn't enough experience eh? BS. total and complete BS. what, my dear friend, has Obama Hussien had?
Palin has been a mayor and a governor for about as long as Obama has been a Senator of which he has written no legislation during that time. Palin has written mucho legislation and managed a entire state.
a governor is very much like a president in that thier state is like the country. they run a Senate and a congress, just like the feds, but hey, your smart enough for me not to have to explain that bunch of stuff to you.
she, my dear boy, has thrice the experiance as dear oh Obama.

[Arthus]

What are McCain and Obamas ideas to deal with the school system? I haven't bothered to listen to many of their long speeches and promises that are mostly lies.

[The Beatles]

No, I can't vote in the election, I'm not a citizen or resident. And as a consequence, I nulled my vote.

Uh huh. Perhaps. And how can you predict this?

Her track record and stated positions. In Alaska, she's been a pork-barrel receiver, favouritist, and has a disastrous environmental policy at all levels: the wolf and bear hunt, the oil industry, etc. (She also denies that global warming is man-made). All of this is quite public information.

It's not a question of personal opinion that I pointed out that Palin has no experiene. Someone on the last page, I forget who, claimed she had. I just debunked that. Sure, give her a chance if you like. Just accept that she is quite inexperienced.

I'm not talking about Michigan or one governor, by the way. I am talking about the Rebublican Party or the Democratic Party, and how they have historically run the United States.

It's fine to point out Obama's middle name. Comparing it to Saddam Hussein's and calling it creepy isn't.

Not sure who pulled in the Social Democrats here. I am just saying that if you look at policy positions -- and granted, both the Republican and Democrat parties have positions quite close to each other -- the ones most similar to the Libertarians, across a broad spectrum of issues and not just guns, are the Democrats.

Again, I am not taking positions here, and I didn't say Obama has more or less experience. In point of fact, they both have very little. In point of fact, Clinton had no experience either when he was elected, so you can see that that's pretty irrelevant to how well you're going to run the country.

Oh, you posted in there Arthus. I'll only cite specific policies here. Briefly, McCain wants to privatise education as far as possible, via school vouchers, and is generally opposed to government support of education in the form of student grants and loans. Obama generally supports more funding for education, both at grade school and in higher education. Neither has too many specific policies beyond these.

[Kraken]

Arthus, you should google it and get your answers about the education.
but! McCain beats Obama on specifics 8:1.
he favores homeschooling, vouchers and parental rights.
Obama favores...well, i am not sure if he has ever pointed it out other than he likes teacher unions and that he wants to pay them more

Her track record and stated positions. In Alaska, she's been a pork-barrel receiver, favouritist, and has a disastrous environmental policy at all levels: the wolf and bear hunt, the oil industry, etc. (She also denies that global warming is man-made). All of this is quite public information.

prove it. go ahead, oh and global warming is not man made, heck, its not even real.
go ahead and show me the "pork-barrel reciever" story *make sure there legit!*, because, last time i checked, she was very much fiscaly deciplined.
of course she has to deal with oil in all of its aspects. lol. its freaking ALASKA.
wolf and bear hunt? WTF?
she hunts Moose.

It's not a question of personal opinion that I pointed out that Palin has no experiene. Someone on the last page, I forget who, claimed she had. I just debunked that. Sure, give her a chance if you like. Just accept that she is quite inexperienced.

oh dear me.
just accept that Obama has less experience and we will call it even.
oh, but you cant can you?
also, here is news flash!! she is a Vice-President canadate! lol.
she will learn all that she fails to know now.
now! what about BHO?

Not sure who pulled in the Social Democrats here. I am just saying that if you look at policy positions -- and granted, both the Republican and Democrat parties have positions quite close to each other -- the ones most similar to the Libertarians, across a broad spectrum of issues and not just guns, are the Democrats.

OMG! you cant be serious?!?
Libertarians are extreme Small Government Constituionalists!
Democrats are extreme Huge Government Socialists!
get your facts STRAIGHT PLEASE!

[The Beatles]

OMG! you cant be serious?!?
Libertarians are extreme Small Government Constituionalists!
Democrats are extreme Huge Government Socialists!
get your facts STRAIGHT PLEASE!

As I say, you're just letting the media make up your mind for you. This is not uncommon, of course.

If you want to talk money, then McCain's tax policies will increase the national debt by 5 trillion (50% increase), Obama's by 3.5 trillion (35% increase). (according to the TPC, which is unaligned) McCain's healthcare costs $1.3 trillion over 10 years, Obama's $1.6 trillion over the same. (also TPC).

go ahead and show me the "pork-barrel reciever" story *make sure there legit!*, because, last time i checked, she was very much fiscaly deciplined.
of course she has to deal with oil in all of its aspects. lol. its freaking ALASKA.
wolf and bear hunt? WTF?
she hunts Moose.

On the environment: she wants to drill in the ANWR, allows big-game hunting of bears and wolves from planes and tried to offer a bounty for it but was shot down, claims in opposition to Bush that the polar bear needs no protection, allowed the beluga population in Cook Inlet to collapse to a fourth due to Chevron's activities, and wants to start coal mining in the Brooks Range mountains.
On pork: she sold a private jet (not on ebay, as she claimed) to a fellow Republican at 80% of market value, supported the Bridge to Nowhere initially (quite publicly in her 2006 campaign to become governor), has secured more project funding for Alaska per capita than any other state in the Union (at roughly 9x the national average). Her own town of 5000 residents got $27 million of federal funds during her mayorship. Quite a lot of this, incidentally, came from Ted Stevens of chequered fame.

[Kraken]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
google Libertarian Party and see what comes up first.
when has the media EVER spoken of the Libertarian party?
please, everyone do look into what the Libertarian party is, especially Beatles.
the are very much Government minimalists.
please show me one example of Democrats being such.
YOU CANT!
you just cant admit your wrong on this Beatles.

If you want to talk money, then McCain's tax policies will increase the national debt by 5 trillion (50% increase), Obama's by 3.5 trillion (35% increase). (according to the TPC, which is unaligned) McCain's healthcare costs $1.3 trillion over 10 years, Obama's $1.6 trillion over the same. (also TPC).

so.....what is TPC? and, heh, they already have in hand all of the spending ideas and proposals in detail from both canadate? puleeze!
oh, and i guess this adds in Obamas Civil orginaizations across America who will get paid and Universal Healthcare as well.
less there. yep.

On the environment: she wants to drill in the ANWR, allows big-game hunting of bears and wolves from planes and tried to offer a bounty for it but was shot down, claims in opposition to Bush that the polar bear needs no protection, allowed the beluga population in Cook Inlet to collapse to a fourth due to Chevron's activities, and wants to start coal mining in the Brooks Range mountains.
On pork: she sold a private jet (not on ebay, as she claimed) to a fellow Republican at 80% of market value, supported the Bridge to Nowhere initially (quite publicly in her 2006 campaign to become governor), has secured more project funding for Alaska per capita than any other state in the Union (at roughly 9x the national average). Her own town of 5000 residents got $27 million of federal funds during her mayorship. Quite a lot of this, incidentally, came from Ted Stevens of chequered fame.

yes, she does want to drill in ANWR and we should. its Americas oil.
tried to offer a bounty? lol. prove it.
of course big game hunting is allowed. so?
"allowed the beluga population in Cook Inlet to collapse to a fourth due to Chevron's activities, and wants to start coal mining in the Brooks Range mountains." whats wrong with coal mining? and she allowed that...right....
"she sold a private jet (not on ebay, as she claimed) to a fellow Republican at 80% of market value,"
can she help who bought it? lol come on man, it had to be someone. would of it been okay if a Dem bought it? lol.
and she did sell it on Ebay.
"supported the Bridge to Nowhere initially (quite publicly in her 2006 campaign to become governor), "
your right, she did. but wait...she supported it and then changed her mind and told the government to piss off. hmmm...
"has secured more project funding for Alaska per capita than any other state in the Union (at roughly 9x the national average). "
prove it.

"Her own town of 5000 residents got $27 million of federal funds during her mayorship. Quite a lot of this, incidentally, came from Ted Stevens of chequered fame"
hmmmm........whats wrong with Ted Stevens? lol. hes a Republican or something?
Johnson City here gets 25+ million a year from the state of Tennessee.....

[The Beatles]

TPC is the Tax Policy Center. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/

please, everyone do look into what the Libertarian party is, especially Beatles.
the are very much Government minimalists.
please show me one example of Democrats being such.

How about the very last time they were in power? Clinton balanced the budget and caused a surplus, introduced few social programmes. By contrast, Bush unbalanced the budget and introduced a host of new programmers, from No Child Left Behind to extensive operations under "Homeland Security". You're the one who won't admit you're in the wrong.

oh, and i guess this adds in Obamas Civil orginaizations across America who will get paid and Universal Healthcare as well.
less there. yep.

Yes.

tried to offer a bounty? lol. prove it.

http://www.defenders.org/newsroom/press ... rogram.php

"she sold a private jet (not on ebay, as she claimed) to a fellow Republican at 80% of market value,"
can she help who bought it? lol come on man, it had to be someone. would of it been okay if a Dem bought it? lol.

Yes, and yes. Pork.

and she did sell it on Ebay.

No. She offered it and rejected the only bid.

your right, she did. but wait...she supported it and then changed her mind and told the government to piss off. hmmm...

You're right! Hmmm... what's the word: oh yes, time-server.

whats wrong with coal mining?

Judgements aside, it ruins the environment of the Brooks Range mountains.

hmmmm........whats wrong with Ted Stevens? lol. hes a Republican or something?

No, just one word: Pork.

Johnson City here gets 25+ million a year from the state of Tennessee.....

That's not federal money.

[Arthus]

Dude, there is no such thing as climate change. Heck, the climate is clearly changing due on its on accord... It is not manmade! That is what I would be saying if I was an idiot, like McCains running mate.

http://howrah.org/World/28299.html

You got to love how some people still refuse to see the facts that are right infront of their eyes.

I would like to see a presidential candidate actually propose something in this subject... Aside from the stuff they currently are saying that they have a plan and that they will reduse greenhouse gasses by blah amount by blah year but give NO clear way of how they plan to achieve that.

[Kraken]

Beatles,
the Libertarians have never been in power.
pointing out a couple of meger things that Clinton did proves nothing.
he put more people on the Governments pay roll than any other president in history. and you compared it to Republicans when you brought in Bush.
payed there salaries with Tax money.
Libertarians would never do such a thing.
you are simply misinformed.
show me examples of where the Libertarian party and the Democrats meet.
can you do that please?

so, i didnt know about the bounty and after reading the slanted article by those who opposed it, i dont disagree with it.
doesnt mean i would want to go hunt a wolf, but there is no proof that it incited illegal wolf hunting.
your just going to have to get over the fact that people hunt man.

call what you want pork.
point to one public official who hasnt taken some under the blanket that you call pork.
i guess you have to throw stones at something here since you oppose someone whos name you did not know any longer than two weeks ago and threatens your superstar.
what the heck is a time-server?
lol
"Judgements aside, it ruins the environment of the Brooks Range mountains. "
are they doing mountian top removal?
if not: how does it ruin it?
is there no way to gleen energy without people screaming foul?
you should try living in the Appalacian mountians and see how they are raping the mountians here. but! because its Alaska and you want to have some mud to sling, you rather just point your attention, like so many others, north where it counts for the time being and then turn it away when its over. let them mine for coal and get over it.
its a fact of life that energy is needed.
besides, when was the last time you went to Brooks Range? or even heard of them before all this?
hmmm?

and yes, it is Federal Monies due to TennCare and no, it doesnt count the state dollars on top of that.
point of me even bringing it up was to counter the ridiculous reason you brought Ted Stevens? because, and im willing to bet my house on this, you havent looked at every state and every city to see where money is coming from and how much. you only turned your attention there, like i have said before, to have some mud to sling.
have you even looked at Bidens record?
any thing there from his very much tiny state?
no.
because he doesnt threaten you.


Artus, Global Warming is a mental disease.
sorry.
and Palin is a idiot according to you. geeze, how quick we are to judge.

[The Beatles]

Beatles,
the Libertarians have never been in power.
pointing out a couple of meger things that Clinton did proves nothing.
he put more people on the Governments pay roll than any other president in history. and you compared it to Republicans when you brought in Bush.
payed there salaries with Tax money.
Libertarians would never do such a thing.
you are simply misinformed.
show me examples of where the Libertarian party and the Democrats meet.
can you do that please?

As I've said, the Democrats aren't the Libertarians, and neither are the Republicans. And as I've repeatedly said, if you want some things the Libertarians stand for, like perhaps fiscal stringency, or civil liberty, you're going to get a heck of a lot more of it if you vote for the Democrats than if you vote for the Republicans. And you know that if you vote Libertarian, you've wasted your vote. Those are the only things I've been claiming.

so, i didnt know about the bounty and after reading the slanted article by those who opposed it, i dont disagree with it.
doesnt mean i would want to go hunt a wolf, but there is no proof that it incited illegal wolf hunting.

I'm fine with hunting. If you read the article and think that it didn't incite illegal wolf hunting, you're just showing your bias, because in fact the law didn't even go through. What was under question was the practice of shooting the wolves from helicopters and planes. People chase the wolf around, tire it out, then land and shoot it and bring the foreleg in to claim the bounty.

i guess you have to throw stones at something here since you oppose someone whos name you did not know any longer than two weeks ago and threatens your superstar.

I read about her background and policies. That's all. You can do the same, or parrot the media like you are now.

what the heck is a time-server?

I was answering your question. She was all for the Bridge to Nowhere, then when it became politicall untenable, she switched her position on it and attacked it. Changing your stated opinions to what is popular is called time-serving in English.

is there no way to gleen energy without people screaming foul?
you should try living in the Appalacian mountians and see how they are raping the mountians here. but! because its Alaska and you want to have some mud to sling, you rather just point your attention, like so many others, north where it counts for the time being and then turn it away when its over. let them mine for coal and get over it.
its a fact of life that energy is needed.

You think I'm happy about it if it happens in the Appalachians? The fact is, it needs to be opposed everywhere. Coal isn't a long-term solution, nor is oil. Nuclear power is much more so, and in fact the Republicans are all for it.

besides, when was the last time you went to Brooks Range? or even heard of them before all this?

Never -- and your point is? Is that why hundreds of thousands of Iraqis had to die in the recent war -- because we'd never met them or heard of them? We've got to protect things we've never seen or never will see, as you know perfectly well.

point of me even bringing it up to counter the ridiculous reason you brought Ted Stevens? because, and im willing to bet my house on this, you havent looked at every state and every city to see where money is coming from and how much. you only turned your attention there, like i have said before, to have some mud to sling.

I looked at the national averages. I looked at Alaska, by the way, not to sling mud, but to answer someone else's question about why I thought Palin so unfit to lead the US. And the reason I brought that up in the first place is because it is worth remembering that if McCain's health fails -- not unlikely -- then Palin would be in power. To those who think that's not very important, remember Lyndon Johnson...

have you even looked at Bidens record?
any thing there from his very much tiny state?
no.
because he doesnt threaten you.

Pork spending in Alaska was 9 times higher than in Delaware this year, if that's what you mean. The comparison is apples to oranges though, as Biden is not governor of Delaware, but the senior Senator.

[Arthus]

Well, those that deny that global warming exists aren't exactly the brightest.

[bjornredtail]

Okay, some responses:
-Wolves have continually attacked livestock, costing ranchers millions since their re-introduction in the Yellowstone area. This was made worse by the fact that they couldn't simply shoot problem animals legally, effectively leaving them no legal response to wolves attacking their livestock. (Of course, being Wyoming, Idaho and Montana ranchers, they often follow the '3S' method of dealing with the wolves. Shoot, shovel and shut up).

You think I'm happy about it if it happens in the Appalachians? The fact is, it needs to be opposed everywhere. Coal isn't a long-term solution, nor is oil. Nuclear power is much more so, and in fact the Republicans are all for it.

Meh... We have LOTS of it left within our borders. Our supplies are good for another hundred or so odd years, even if we used some sort of coal-gas conversion to supplement our fuel supply. Just so long as the mining companies clean up after themselves after they are done, I don't have any problems with their mining operations.

And don't give me the whole man-made greenhouse gases are causing global climate change business. Until we know to a much better degree of certainty, we shouldn't surrender our civil liberties and shoot our economy in the foot. Unfortunately, the activities of one Al Gore have greatly impacted the study of earth's climate to the point that no research result isn't tainted. In order to be credible, and to receive funding for future research, the findings must support a large effect by man's greenhouse gas emissions, because, as we all know, there IS NO DEBATE.

Nuclear power has a massive problem: Waste Disposal. We have argued about this before, but I think any long-term waste repository is bound to be woefully under engineered. It is all but impossible to build something on a geological timescale, and that what it will take make the area surrounding the dump habitable for human life in the future.

As I've said, the Democrats aren't the Libertarians, and neither are the Republicans. And as I've repeatedly said, if you want some things the Libertarians stand for, like perhaps fiscal stringency, or civil liberty, you're going to get a heck of a lot more of it if you vote for the Democrats than if you vote for the Republicans. And you know that if you vote Libertarian, you've wasted your vote. Those are the only things I've been claiming.

It depends just how libertarian you are, and just what you value. That, and the Democrat's are inherently in favor of more civil and social liberty. They are behind a number of laws prohibiting discrimination by private parties on a number of criteria. This may, or may not be a good idea, but it's a violation of individual liberties. Thus, they value equality over liberty.

As I've said, the Democrats aren't the Libertarians, and neither are the Republicans. And as I've repeatedly said, if you want some things the Libertarians stand for, like perhaps fiscal stringency, or civil liberty, you're going to get a heck of a lot more of it if you vote for the Democrats than if you vote for the Republicans. And you know that if you vote Libertarian, you've wasted your vote. Those are the only things I've been claiming.

"The Tax Policy Center is a non-partisan joint venture of The Urban Institute and The Brookings Institution"
Nonpartisan != unbiased. MoveOn is technically non-partisan, but you know which candidate they will support. I'll look into those later, but I THINK those are left wing think tanks.

On pork: she sold a private jet (not on ebay, as she claimed) to a fellow Republican at 80% of market value, supported the Bridge to Nowhere initially (quite publicly in her 2006 campaign to become governor), has secured more project funding for Alaska per capita than any other state in the Union (at roughly 9x the national average). Her own town of 5000 residents got $27 million of federal funds during her mayorship. Quite a lot of this, incidentally, came from Ted Stevens of chequered fame.

It depends... #1, what do you count as pork? Would a Coast Guard or Airforce base count? #2 How do you figure it? Not all states are created equal. Different populations, strategic values, requirements, natural features and economic conditions. Alaska is of great strategic value and it has a VAST landmass. So, a simple per-capita federal spending simply will not work for comparison purposes.

It's fine to point out Obama's middle name. Comparing it to Saddam Hussein's and calling it creepy isn't.

Heh... The good news that anyone idiotic enough to judge Obama on JUST that is unlikely to actually know Obama's middle name. (and hopefully, isn't likely to vote).

On a similar, Obama's image as 'black' guy is largely contrived to make this a 'historic' election (heh, like not having a president or vice-president running for the first time in the last 40 years wasn't enough). So, Obama too is willing to do some 'time-serving' of his own. (Yes, it's NOT a real issue, but it does say something about his character).

Again, I am not taking positions here, and I didn't say Obama has more or less experience. In point of fact, they both have very little. In point of fact, Clinton had no experience either when he was elected, so you can see that that's pretty irrelevant to how well you're going to run the country.

Clinton was a state governor. That's a lot more experience than being a senator as it is an EXECUTIVE job, like the Presidency. Thus, Palin has MORE experience than Obama. The Clinton administration, despite some of it's lapses in judgment (like trying to go after Al Quida as a criminal organizaiton) was better organized than Bush's. Things like Paul Bremmer disbanding of the Iraqui army without checking with his superiors were less likely to happen.

Pork spending in Alaska was 9 times higher than in Delaware this year, if that's what you mean. The comparison is apples to oranges though, as Biden is not governor of Delaware, but the senior Senator.

If anything a Senator has more influence on Pork than a governor.

* If you are complaining that ideals are not policy positions, you ought to consider candidates' policy positions instead of ideals and speeches. All candidates, presidential and vice-presidential, have web sites in which they make their positions abundantly clear. They also explain and expound these positions daily in speeches, interviews, letters, etc. I can't believe only Bjorn of all the people who posted something longer than a sentence to this thread bother to examine policy and come to a factual opinion instead of relying on how the media colours the candidates. All of the candidates stress simple ideals in their speeches (Hope and Change, Nation and Country, etc.): these are not their policy positions. Windy noticed this yet fell into it.

Of course, the character of a candidate does have an influence on what decisions they will make in office on issues besides those they have campaigned on. So, these are still fair questions to ask.

[The Beatles]

I agree that wolves need to be culled. But shooting them from the air is tourism, not culling, so her willingness to fund this tactic, which is in other ways damaging to the environment, is just one facet of her environmentally destructive policies.

Nuclear power isn't necessarily about climate change, nor is environmental preservation. Coal mining pollutes and degrades its surrounding environment.

Individual liberty vs civil or social liberty is a misnomer. Individual or human liberties are usually divided into three classes: civil, social, political. So when I say that the democrats favour civil and social liberty, I mean that they enhance individual liberty. I don't see how you can claim that the Republicans favour those; when you look at the PATRIOT act, the TSA, the burgeoning Homeland Security, invasive surveillance, and all the rest of it.

Incidentally, laws prohibiting discrimination promote individual liberty, by not allowing systematic oppression of a class, just as the fundamental laws of democracy seek to prevent violence and oppression of any citizen by prohibiting murder, theft, etc. These decrease the liberty of allowing us to help ourselves to any property, whilst increasing the liberty of private property. In the same way, anti-discrimination laws decrease the liberty of those oppressing others, whilst increasing liberty from oppression (for all).

It depends... #1, what do you count as pork?

All the spending figures were ones defined as pork by CAGW, which is as close to a systematic libertarian, fiscal right-wing examination of the federal budget you are going to find.

On a similar, Obama's image as 'black' guy is largely contrived to make this a 'historic' election

I don't see it as contrived. I, and every single one of my acquaintances in Europe, see it as a historic election, and yes, because Obama is black. We think that if he were elected, it would be a sure sign that a majority in America has conquered racism; if he were not, the jury would still be out.

Thus, Palin has MORE experience than Obama.

Sure. But still, Palin, Obama, Clinton: all inexperienced. There are shades between them, yes.

Of course, the character of a candidate does have an influence on what decisions they will make in office on issues besides those they have campaigned on. So, these are still fair questions to ask.

Agreed. I was just chastising those who were complaining that they were only hearing Hope and Change from Obama. I pointed out that he has provided ample and detailed policy proposals on his website, in interviews, and speeches.